Saturday, August 20, 2005
Lending Money:
About ten years ago, I was dumb enough to lend money to some of my friends. I believe I got burned for about $300-400 at most, and at the time I was angry that these people never paid me back. Nowadays, I'm happy that I got burned because I learned the lesson for a relatively cheap price. Many in the poker world are not so lucky. In one of the commentary tracks of the special edition of the movie "Rounders," Chris Moneymaker, Phil Hellmuth, and Johnny Chan all admit to having loaned out money that was never repaid. At the poker room, I probably saw people begging others for money at least once a day. Even in the online rooms, you'll see beggars. In the chat box, people beg for others to send them money with the promise of paying it back. On twoplustwo, I remember reading a thread a few weeks ago where some idiot complained that he had staked (poker term for lending someone money to play, and then arranging to get a portion or their profits) someone he met on the website, and that person had failed to pay him as agreed.
The pressure to lend money can be great. I think people in the poker room do so for several reasons. Some people have a need for acceptance that is so great that they ignore their better judgement and lend fishes money hoping that the fish will then not dislike them. Other people feel sorry that a player lost all his money that night and want to help the busted player with a loan. Poker players know how horrible it feels to get busted up, and they know how most players want to stay in action in the hope of getting lucky and getting their money back. A few pros even lend money to the big fishes because they want the fish to lose even more money. When the fish is out of the money he brought with him, the pro won't have anymore of a chance of at the fish's free money. By lending money, the fish then can continue to "throw a party" and the fish will likely play even worse in his desperation to get even.
People should avoid lending money out in general, especially to friends because it strains the friendship if the friend can't pay. Poker players should avoid lending money in to the losers for several reasons. First, though you might not have gotten burned yet, it will happen. It doesn't matter how rich you think a fish is: fish eventually go busted. $20-40 hold 'em might not be high stakes to the fish, but blackjack and other table games can bust almost anyone. At the Harrah's, there was a supposed millionaire named Jim R that no one thought could be busted. He went to the boat everyday, but one day he disappearead, but not after he had maxed out his credit with all the players in the room. This brings up point number two: lending money to fishes can be counterproductive. First, by loaning money, you might cause the fish not to come back for a long time because he wants to avoid you. He wants to avoid you either because he can't pay your or doesn't want to pay you. Next, he might not come out because your loans caused him to lose more money than he had planned. Some people budget a certain amount that they can lose. When they exceed that amount, their finances may suffer and they might not be able to play for a long time now. If you had just let them lose what they brought, they might be back next payday instead of two months from now.
The lessons I learned from Paco, Joe, and Chris have made me immune to people asking me for money at the casino. I'd like to say that I never lend money, but I do so occasionally. Right now, there are probably three people that I'd lend money to at a poker game: Jake, Greg, and Colorado Dave. I'd lend money to Greg because he has build up a good credit rating with me. I have loaned him money in the past and have never been burned. The funny thing is that he'd probably never ask me for money now because he has quit going to the casinos and playing poker. Actually, when I think about it, I probably wouldn't lend him any money for gambling as I wouldn't want to support him in doing something he has vowed not to do anymore. I'd loan both Jake and Dave money because I know that they are winning poker players. If we were on a road trip to Vegas and they ran low, I'd probably lend them a few thousand because I know they are good for it, and that they are favorites in the games they are playing. Of course, I woudln't loan them money if I didn't think they were a favorite in a game. For example, if Dave asked me for some money because he wanted to "get even" in a $100-200 game, I'd probably deny his request.
As for random people that I know only from the room, you'll never get a dime from me. I remember going to the restroom one time and having some guy ask to borrow $50. He said that he sees me all the time and was hoping I'd lend him money. Sorry guy, but you thought wrong. As for players that I helped bust out of the game, no money for you either. If you didn't call me down everytime with bottom pair or worse, perhaps you wouldn't have lost your roll today. If you guys played better, then I'd be out of a job, so I'll be nice to you, and be supportive, but I can't lend you any money. Thanks for playing, but if you want a loan, go get a Comcheck, cash advance, or find some other suckers to lend you money.
I'll close with one final example of my weakness. Some might call it sympathy. One time, the game was slow in the early morning and the game got short handed. Gus and I were chopping up the other two players that had stayed. Just as the game was about to break, a man sat down that obviously had no clue how to play properly. In the next hour, Gus and I proceeded to beat this man out of about $1200 in our limit $20-40 game. When he finally gave up, after being busted up on one last hand, the game broke. I racked my chips and headed downstairs to cash out. The player ran into me on the escalator and begged me for a loan. At first, I refused. He then proceeded with some likely BS story about how he needed gas money etc. I knew if I gave him any money, it wasn't a loan, but was a gift. I finally relented and gave him a green chip ($25). I did so because he said, "Come on man. I need some gas money. I sat down there and you guys busted me for over a thousand."
The guy had a good point. Had he not sat down, I would have quit the game and gone home. Had he not sat down, I would not have made $500+ extra that night. Luck would account for any win or loss. If he were a good player, I definately would not have been so generous. I guess what ultimately made me part with $25, is that I knew this guy had no chance against Gus and I. I remember he played in the worse way possible. He called preflop almost 100% of the time. Postflop, he'd never bluff, and he'd never raise unless he had a monster. He was so passive that he often didn't even raise with top pair, which is a huge hand in a three person game. He'd also call down to the river with any two cards. If I had to design an ideal opponent, he'd be almost identical to what I'd want.
About ten years ago, I was dumb enough to lend money to some of my friends. I believe I got burned for about $300-400 at most, and at the time I was angry that these people never paid me back. Nowadays, I'm happy that I got burned because I learned the lesson for a relatively cheap price. Many in the poker world are not so lucky. In one of the commentary tracks of the special edition of the movie "Rounders," Chris Moneymaker, Phil Hellmuth, and Johnny Chan all admit to having loaned out money that was never repaid. At the poker room, I probably saw people begging others for money at least once a day. Even in the online rooms, you'll see beggars. In the chat box, people beg for others to send them money with the promise of paying it back. On twoplustwo, I remember reading a thread a few weeks ago where some idiot complained that he had staked (poker term for lending someone money to play, and then arranging to get a portion or their profits) someone he met on the website, and that person had failed to pay him as agreed.
The pressure to lend money can be great. I think people in the poker room do so for several reasons. Some people have a need for acceptance that is so great that they ignore their better judgement and lend fishes money hoping that the fish will then not dislike them. Other people feel sorry that a player lost all his money that night and want to help the busted player with a loan. Poker players know how horrible it feels to get busted up, and they know how most players want to stay in action in the hope of getting lucky and getting their money back. A few pros even lend money to the big fishes because they want the fish to lose even more money. When the fish is out of the money he brought with him, the pro won't have anymore of a chance of at the fish's free money. By lending money, the fish then can continue to "throw a party" and the fish will likely play even worse in his desperation to get even.
People should avoid lending money out in general, especially to friends because it strains the friendship if the friend can't pay. Poker players should avoid lending money in to the losers for several reasons. First, though you might not have gotten burned yet, it will happen. It doesn't matter how rich you think a fish is: fish eventually go busted. $20-40 hold 'em might not be high stakes to the fish, but blackjack and other table games can bust almost anyone. At the Harrah's, there was a supposed millionaire named Jim R that no one thought could be busted. He went to the boat everyday, but one day he disappearead, but not after he had maxed out his credit with all the players in the room. This brings up point number two: lending money to fishes can be counterproductive. First, by loaning money, you might cause the fish not to come back for a long time because he wants to avoid you. He wants to avoid you either because he can't pay your or doesn't want to pay you. Next, he might not come out because your loans caused him to lose more money than he had planned. Some people budget a certain amount that they can lose. When they exceed that amount, their finances may suffer and they might not be able to play for a long time now. If you had just let them lose what they brought, they might be back next payday instead of two months from now.
The lessons I learned from Paco, Joe, and Chris have made me immune to people asking me for money at the casino. I'd like to say that I never lend money, but I do so occasionally. Right now, there are probably three people that I'd lend money to at a poker game: Jake, Greg, and Colorado Dave. I'd lend money to Greg because he has build up a good credit rating with me. I have loaned him money in the past and have never been burned. The funny thing is that he'd probably never ask me for money now because he has quit going to the casinos and playing poker. Actually, when I think about it, I probably wouldn't lend him any money for gambling as I wouldn't want to support him in doing something he has vowed not to do anymore. I'd loan both Jake and Dave money because I know that they are winning poker players. If we were on a road trip to Vegas and they ran low, I'd probably lend them a few thousand because I know they are good for it, and that they are favorites in the games they are playing. Of course, I woudln't loan them money if I didn't think they were a favorite in a game. For example, if Dave asked me for some money because he wanted to "get even" in a $100-200 game, I'd probably deny his request.
As for random people that I know only from the room, you'll never get a dime from me. I remember going to the restroom one time and having some guy ask to borrow $50. He said that he sees me all the time and was hoping I'd lend him money. Sorry guy, but you thought wrong. As for players that I helped bust out of the game, no money for you either. If you didn't call me down everytime with bottom pair or worse, perhaps you wouldn't have lost your roll today. If you guys played better, then I'd be out of a job, so I'll be nice to you, and be supportive, but I can't lend you any money. Thanks for playing, but if you want a loan, go get a Comcheck, cash advance, or find some other suckers to lend you money.
I'll close with one final example of my weakness. Some might call it sympathy. One time, the game was slow in the early morning and the game got short handed. Gus and I were chopping up the other two players that had stayed. Just as the game was about to break, a man sat down that obviously had no clue how to play properly. In the next hour, Gus and I proceeded to beat this man out of about $1200 in our limit $20-40 game. When he finally gave up, after being busted up on one last hand, the game broke. I racked my chips and headed downstairs to cash out. The player ran into me on the escalator and begged me for a loan. At first, I refused. He then proceeded with some likely BS story about how he needed gas money etc. I knew if I gave him any money, it wasn't a loan, but was a gift. I finally relented and gave him a green chip ($25). I did so because he said, "Come on man. I need some gas money. I sat down there and you guys busted me for over a thousand."
The guy had a good point. Had he not sat down, I would have quit the game and gone home. Had he not sat down, I would not have made $500+ extra that night. Luck would account for any win or loss. If he were a good player, I definately would not have been so generous. I guess what ultimately made me part with $25, is that I knew this guy had no chance against Gus and I. I remember he played in the worse way possible. He called preflop almost 100% of the time. Postflop, he'd never bluff, and he'd never raise unless he had a monster. He was so passive that he often didn't even raise with top pair, which is a huge hand in a three person game. He'd also call down to the river with any two cards. If I had to design an ideal opponent, he'd be almost identical to what I'd want.
