Saturday, December 24, 2005
Can a straight guy really be "just friends" with women?:
Seamas, his cousin (whom I will now call JS for brevity), and I were discussing this very topic. She is convinced that she has guy friends that don't have a secret desire to sleep with her. Seamas and I said that she was wrong. We basically said that all guys (as the title says, we are referring to straight guys here) who are friends with girls have a desire to sleep with these female friends. The desire may be obvious: for example, an AFC or BAFC who keeps buying a girl stuff while being "friends." It's obvious to the girl that the guy desperately wants to sleep with her. Of course the guy may make it seem like he wants a relationship, as he is afraid to show his sexuality, but we all know what he really wants. The desire may also be well hidden. In the past, I've had friends who became friends with girls but secretly (well, they told me but kept it from girls) wanted to sleep with the girls. Some of these girls really believed that these guy friends were different that the typical AFC. They believed these guys truly wanted to be their friends and weren't just secretly plotting or just waiting to score sex. We believe that JS friends fall into this exact category of guy friends with secret desires. We argue that they desire her sexually and she denies this because they are good at keeping it secret.
The scenario I kept using to try to convince JS of my point is that if she suddenly threw herself upon these guys, they would reveal their true feelings by having sex with her. Seamas argued that JS could prove the guy's hid sexual desires with a less extreme test. He said that JS's guy friends weren't traditional friends in the sense that her guy friends treated her differently that they would treat other guy friends. Suppose that that JS knocked on her male roommate's (her example of a guy friend who has no interest in having sex with her) door in the middle of the night and said , "I'm having a horrible day. Can you do me a favor and let me sleep in your bed (meaning just sleeping and no sex)?" She said that her roommate would refuse. We argued that he would definitely allow her to sleep in his bed. Furthermore, he would refuse the exact request from a guy friend. His refusal shows that he has a different relationship with JS than a traditional friendship. By traditional friendship, we mean a typical friendship that exists without sexual tension or desire between two heterosexual males.
Personal confession:
I'll take this opportunity to admit that in my AFC days, I would be friends with girls because I secretly desired to have sex and relationship with them. Sex was of course what I wanted immediately, but I genuinely did care about these females friends so I often envisioned that I would want to have a relationship. Additionally, I viewed that succeeding in both having sex with them and having a relationship with though was the best (and possibly only) path to getting more sex in the future. For many girls, I think these desires became obvious. Take my redheaded neighbor that strung my AFC ass along. She knew what I wanted yet kept letting me buy her stuff and take her out even though she knew it was unlikely she'd ever give me what I wanted. She strung me along for a long time while giving me very little. I felt frustrated often, but I'd often see glimpses of progress. One time, she showed me her redhaired pussy. Later, I felt great b/c she let me eat her pussy (which was actually my first time doing that). In my AFC days, though, a part of me had always been angry at her for stringing me along. Nowadays, I realize that she didn't necessarily string me along intentionally to milk me for gifts and dinners. Furthermore, I think it's my fault that I let myself get strung alone because I was an AFC or BAFC. It was only after I enter my quest to be a PUA that I finally feel like I've found internal closure with that girl. The experience was a good lesson that was part of a journey that lead me to change my life. Also, when I ate her pussy, I could have fucked her, but I didn't have any skills, so again that was my own fault. I know that if I would have gotten intercourse from her that day, I would have had such regret about my actions.
In a slightly different situation were two friends that I grew up with. We had always been friends because our parents were friends so we grew up together. In many ways, they are more like sisters than friends because we've known each other for so long. Since we are actually not related, there is no reason for me not to feel sexual desire for them. Ever since I knew about sex, I had always wished something would happen with one of them, preferably the older one because I knew her better. When she got her first serious boyfriend, I was jealous that we had never tried dating. As I remained a virgin in those days, I always wished that one of them would have relieved me of my burden. Later, after I got some dating and sexual experience, the feelings changed. I felt less of the burning desire I had felt earlier and just thought that it would be nice to have sex with them. After all, I was close to them and I felt it would be fun to take our relationship to another level. Currently, I don't really feel that way about them. They have gone back to their proper place as female friends that are almost sisters. The word "almost" is important there because I know I haven't achieved true friendship here without desire.
Lithmus test of female friendship:
I don't feel as if I've achieved this ideal female friendship because right now, I'd probably have sex with them if they offerend themselves to me. I'm not going to actively pursue this outcome, but if they offered, I'd probably do this. This makes this relationship different than any male relationship I have. I might be willing to do a three-way or possibly even a DP with Seamas and his ex, but I would never do him or any other guy friend. Here is where I start to become unsure about some points that I felt intially felt were clear. If this bizarre scenario happened and I had sex with either of these two friends, it doesn't necessarily mean the end of our friendship. There are ample examples in movies or TV which shows how sex can destroy a friendship, but there are also examples of how friendship can continue after sex. If I have sex with a female friend and then we remain friends afterwards, are we genueinly real friends afterwards (meaning friendship without sexual tension or desire, and almost identical to a male friendship.) I think it's possible if I wouldn't accept the offer again because we wanted to just be friends. In contrast, if we kept repeating the offer, then I would say we were fuck buddies or "friends with benefits."
In the last paragraph, I speculated that JS's type of friendship could be possible if the sexual avenue were explored. In that scenario, JS and her male friend could have decided to explore sex. Afterwards, they agree that they don't want the relationship to have sex. At that point, I conceded that a sexual tension free relationship could be possible. I say it's only possible if both parties genuinely no longer desire any sexual relations now that it's been explored. If either party were willing to do it again (most likely the guy of course), then I argue that the friendship is still not a true one.
Male/Female Friendship w/out tension, w/out sex:
I should point out here that I'm exploring this question mainly from the perspective of the man. I feel that I have clear insight into male desire whereas I'm still trying to understand female desire. I should have said at the beginning that I do believe girls can have guy friends whom they don't desire. I think that happens very often, but as I said above, it's almost never true for the guy. Seamas and I tried to imagine what scenarios might allow a man to be free of secret sexual desires.
1) A PUA would need variety or he'd likely accept sex with female friends. We speculated that even if I were banging Giselle Bundchen and Jessica Alba regularly, I might still accept sex from a female friend. As damn fine as those babes are, a guy would still desire some variety. Now, if a warpig offered me sex, I'd almost definately refuse. Heck, I might even refuse now if the girl is ugly enough. (I think I'd most likely accept the offer from a HB6 or above in my current state.) If I were banging Alba and Giselle, though, I'd only accept variety sex from an extremely hot friend. If I had another model friend that threw herself upon me, it would be hard to refuse her advances. I'm assume her that accepting the sexual advances wouldn't result in me losing either woman. (In this fantasy, one might assume that would have to be the case as it would be impossible to balance even the two girl relationship without being discovered. Even assuming that I were banging just extremely hot 9's or 10's, we'd have to assume that I had some freedom in partners or I'd be busted by them. Also, even if the two girls just accepted each other, I'd be less likely to accept friend sex if it meant messing up my steady pussy.)
I'll summarize by saying the hotter my regular action is, the hotter my friend would have to be for me to accept sex from the friend. Not having enough variety, though, might increase the chances of my acceptance.
2) Assume that I'm having smoking hot MLRT (multiple long term relationships), but also have 1-2 FB's (fuck buddies) and I'm scoring frequent one night stands (ONS) from sarging. In this scenario, I have variety, so I'll be less likely to accept friend sex that I would in the above example. Of course, the hotter these girls are that I'm banging regularly, the hotter my friend would have to be for me to accept her sexual advances.
Seamas and I discussed this point and we concluded that this would be ultimate sceario that could solve the problem posed at the beginning. If I were having constant lays from MLRT's, FB's and ONS from extremely hot HB9-HB10's (true ones on my scale, see a future post for more details), then I could reach a point where I'd be so sexual satisfied that I would never accept a female friend's advances. At this point, it might be possible to refuse the advances of a HB10 model friend.
Back to reality:
I think that having explored sex in a friendship might be the only sceanario we've come up with which could result in a male-female friendship that has no hidden desires. To recap, in this situation, sex was explored and then both parties were able to relieve themselve of these desires. After having sex, they both felt like they really just wanted to be friends and they both wouldn't accept sex in the future from each other if one of them falters and wants it.
The other scenarios I posited are very unrealistic. I believe that I'll one day land HB10's but I think it's extremely unlikely that I'd have a steady stream of HB10 or even HB9+ sex. I do believe, though, that it's possible to have a MLRT's, FB's, and ONS, but I think the quality of the girls would be mixed. If I'm having almost daily sex, I think it would be possible to refuse the sexual advances of all my female friends. This is because I don't have any HB9's or HB10's. The less good looking my female friends are, the less likely I'd accept their sex offer in general, and even less likely I'll accept if i have regular action. If I had a ton of regular sex, but not with Super Hot Babes (SHB's), I imagine that it would still be hard (if not impossible) to refuse sex from female friends that were SHB's. I envision that even refusing sex from HB7.5+ would still be challenging.
Conclusions:
I'm getting sleepy since I've been up like 22 hours and only got 2 hours sleep last night, so I'll sum up what I think. I stick by what Seamas and I argued in the car with JS. Originally, I argued it was impossible for men to be friends with women in the same way that men are friends with other men. AFC's or lower would always have obvious or hidden sexual desires so sexual tension would always alter the relationship. I now modify the original point. Talking with Seamas and writing this has convinced me, for now, that this tension can be relieved through the sex taking place. Seamas says he's actually experienced this: he fucked some girls that he was friends with and then was able to put those girls on a friendship level that his guys friends are on. Without actually having sex, though, AFC's or lower can't have true friendships with women unless they find her completely undesireable. A PUA (or someone close to that level) has more control because he has sex regularly.
A PUA is not desperate like an AFC so he's less likely to harbor secret desires for female friends. If he desires a female, he'll work to game them until he gets rejected or he scores, so it's hard for him to wind in the friend zone, unlike AFC's. If he's there it's most likely by choice, meaning he doesn't feel sexually attracted to them (most likely b/c they aren't good looking enough for him.) The amount of sex he gets and the physical attractiveness of his parnters influences how hot a female friend (or even female partners in general) have to be before he'll even feel sexual desire for them. A female would have to be really hot for a PUA to let himself fall into the friend zone. I can envision a PUA getting trapped in the AFC trap with a SHB. In that case, he's like the AFC with hidden or obvious desires. A PUA, though, would almost never (I'd even be willing to say NEVER) would have the sexual tension with warpigs, and UG's. He could be real friends with them, and possible even average or even above average girls (again, depending on how much action he's getting and how hot his fucks are). By this, I mean, he can be friends with these girls just like he is with guy friends. With HB9 & 10's, it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the PUA to not feel sex desire for them and to not accept a fuck offer.
Seamas, his cousin (whom I will now call JS for brevity), and I were discussing this very topic. She is convinced that she has guy friends that don't have a secret desire to sleep with her. Seamas and I said that she was wrong. We basically said that all guys (as the title says, we are referring to straight guys here) who are friends with girls have a desire to sleep with these female friends. The desire may be obvious: for example, an AFC or BAFC who keeps buying a girl stuff while being "friends." It's obvious to the girl that the guy desperately wants to sleep with her. Of course the guy may make it seem like he wants a relationship, as he is afraid to show his sexuality, but we all know what he really wants. The desire may also be well hidden. In the past, I've had friends who became friends with girls but secretly (well, they told me but kept it from girls) wanted to sleep with the girls. Some of these girls really believed that these guy friends were different that the typical AFC. They believed these guys truly wanted to be their friends and weren't just secretly plotting or just waiting to score sex. We believe that JS friends fall into this exact category of guy friends with secret desires. We argue that they desire her sexually and she denies this because they are good at keeping it secret.
The scenario I kept using to try to convince JS of my point is that if she suddenly threw herself upon these guys, they would reveal their true feelings by having sex with her. Seamas argued that JS could prove the guy's hid sexual desires with a less extreme test. He said that JS's guy friends weren't traditional friends in the sense that her guy friends treated her differently that they would treat other guy friends. Suppose that that JS knocked on her male roommate's (her example of a guy friend who has no interest in having sex with her) door in the middle of the night and said , "I'm having a horrible day. Can you do me a favor and let me sleep in your bed (meaning just sleeping and no sex)?" She said that her roommate would refuse. We argued that he would definitely allow her to sleep in his bed. Furthermore, he would refuse the exact request from a guy friend. His refusal shows that he has a different relationship with JS than a traditional friendship. By traditional friendship, we mean a typical friendship that exists without sexual tension or desire between two heterosexual males.
Personal confession:
I'll take this opportunity to admit that in my AFC days, I would be friends with girls because I secretly desired to have sex and relationship with them. Sex was of course what I wanted immediately, but I genuinely did care about these females friends so I often envisioned that I would want to have a relationship. Additionally, I viewed that succeeding in both having sex with them and having a relationship with though was the best (and possibly only) path to getting more sex in the future. For many girls, I think these desires became obvious. Take my redheaded neighbor that strung my AFC ass along. She knew what I wanted yet kept letting me buy her stuff and take her out even though she knew it was unlikely she'd ever give me what I wanted. She strung me along for a long time while giving me very little. I felt frustrated often, but I'd often see glimpses of progress. One time, she showed me her redhaired pussy. Later, I felt great b/c she let me eat her pussy (which was actually my first time doing that). In my AFC days, though, a part of me had always been angry at her for stringing me along. Nowadays, I realize that she didn't necessarily string me along intentionally to milk me for gifts and dinners. Furthermore, I think it's my fault that I let myself get strung alone because I was an AFC or BAFC. It was only after I enter my quest to be a PUA that I finally feel like I've found internal closure with that girl. The experience was a good lesson that was part of a journey that lead me to change my life. Also, when I ate her pussy, I could have fucked her, but I didn't have any skills, so again that was my own fault. I know that if I would have gotten intercourse from her that day, I would have had such regret about my actions.
In a slightly different situation were two friends that I grew up with. We had always been friends because our parents were friends so we grew up together. In many ways, they are more like sisters than friends because we've known each other for so long. Since we are actually not related, there is no reason for me not to feel sexual desire for them. Ever since I knew about sex, I had always wished something would happen with one of them, preferably the older one because I knew her better. When she got her first serious boyfriend, I was jealous that we had never tried dating. As I remained a virgin in those days, I always wished that one of them would have relieved me of my burden. Later, after I got some dating and sexual experience, the feelings changed. I felt less of the burning desire I had felt earlier and just thought that it would be nice to have sex with them. After all, I was close to them and I felt it would be fun to take our relationship to another level. Currently, I don't really feel that way about them. They have gone back to their proper place as female friends that are almost sisters. The word "almost" is important there because I know I haven't achieved true friendship here without desire.
Lithmus test of female friendship:
I don't feel as if I've achieved this ideal female friendship because right now, I'd probably have sex with them if they offerend themselves to me. I'm not going to actively pursue this outcome, but if they offered, I'd probably do this. This makes this relationship different than any male relationship I have. I might be willing to do a three-way or possibly even a DP with Seamas and his ex, but I would never do him or any other guy friend. Here is where I start to become unsure about some points that I felt intially felt were clear. If this bizarre scenario happened and I had sex with either of these two friends, it doesn't necessarily mean the end of our friendship. There are ample examples in movies or TV which shows how sex can destroy a friendship, but there are also examples of how friendship can continue after sex. If I have sex with a female friend and then we remain friends afterwards, are we genueinly real friends afterwards (meaning friendship without sexual tension or desire, and almost identical to a male friendship.) I think it's possible if I wouldn't accept the offer again because we wanted to just be friends. In contrast, if we kept repeating the offer, then I would say we were fuck buddies or "friends with benefits."
In the last paragraph, I speculated that JS's type of friendship could be possible if the sexual avenue were explored. In that scenario, JS and her male friend could have decided to explore sex. Afterwards, they agree that they don't want the relationship to have sex. At that point, I conceded that a sexual tension free relationship could be possible. I say it's only possible if both parties genuinely no longer desire any sexual relations now that it's been explored. If either party were willing to do it again (most likely the guy of course), then I argue that the friendship is still not a true one.
Male/Female Friendship w/out tension, w/out sex:
I should point out here that I'm exploring this question mainly from the perspective of the man. I feel that I have clear insight into male desire whereas I'm still trying to understand female desire. I should have said at the beginning that I do believe girls can have guy friends whom they don't desire. I think that happens very often, but as I said above, it's almost never true for the guy. Seamas and I tried to imagine what scenarios might allow a man to be free of secret sexual desires.
1) A PUA would need variety or he'd likely accept sex with female friends. We speculated that even if I were banging Giselle Bundchen and Jessica Alba regularly, I might still accept sex from a female friend. As damn fine as those babes are, a guy would still desire some variety. Now, if a warpig offered me sex, I'd almost definately refuse. Heck, I might even refuse now if the girl is ugly enough. (I think I'd most likely accept the offer from a HB6 or above in my current state.) If I were banging Alba and Giselle, though, I'd only accept variety sex from an extremely hot friend. If I had another model friend that threw herself upon me, it would be hard to refuse her advances. I'm assume her that accepting the sexual advances wouldn't result in me losing either woman. (In this fantasy, one might assume that would have to be the case as it would be impossible to balance even the two girl relationship without being discovered. Even assuming that I were banging just extremely hot 9's or 10's, we'd have to assume that I had some freedom in partners or I'd be busted by them. Also, even if the two girls just accepted each other, I'd be less likely to accept friend sex if it meant messing up my steady pussy.)
I'll summarize by saying the hotter my regular action is, the hotter my friend would have to be for me to accept sex from the friend. Not having enough variety, though, might increase the chances of my acceptance.
2) Assume that I'm having smoking hot MLRT (multiple long term relationships), but also have 1-2 FB's (fuck buddies) and I'm scoring frequent one night stands (ONS) from sarging. In this scenario, I have variety, so I'll be less likely to accept friend sex that I would in the above example. Of course, the hotter these girls are that I'm banging regularly, the hotter my friend would have to be for me to accept her sexual advances.
Seamas and I discussed this point and we concluded that this would be ultimate sceario that could solve the problem posed at the beginning. If I were having constant lays from MLRT's, FB's and ONS from extremely hot HB9-HB10's (true ones on my scale, see a future post for more details), then I could reach a point where I'd be so sexual satisfied that I would never accept a female friend's advances. At this point, it might be possible to refuse the advances of a HB10 model friend.
Back to reality:
I think that having explored sex in a friendship might be the only sceanario we've come up with which could result in a male-female friendship that has no hidden desires. To recap, in this situation, sex was explored and then both parties were able to relieve themselve of these desires. After having sex, they both felt like they really just wanted to be friends and they both wouldn't accept sex in the future from each other if one of them falters and wants it.
The other scenarios I posited are very unrealistic. I believe that I'll one day land HB10's but I think it's extremely unlikely that I'd have a steady stream of HB10 or even HB9+ sex. I do believe, though, that it's possible to have a MLRT's, FB's, and ONS, but I think the quality of the girls would be mixed. If I'm having almost daily sex, I think it would be possible to refuse the sexual advances of all my female friends. This is because I don't have any HB9's or HB10's. The less good looking my female friends are, the less likely I'd accept their sex offer in general, and even less likely I'll accept if i have regular action. If I had a ton of regular sex, but not with Super Hot Babes (SHB's), I imagine that it would still be hard (if not impossible) to refuse sex from female friends that were SHB's. I envision that even refusing sex from HB7.5+ would still be challenging.
Conclusions:
I'm getting sleepy since I've been up like 22 hours and only got 2 hours sleep last night, so I'll sum up what I think. I stick by what Seamas and I argued in the car with JS. Originally, I argued it was impossible for men to be friends with women in the same way that men are friends with other men. AFC's or lower would always have obvious or hidden sexual desires so sexual tension would always alter the relationship. I now modify the original point. Talking with Seamas and writing this has convinced me, for now, that this tension can be relieved through the sex taking place. Seamas says he's actually experienced this: he fucked some girls that he was friends with and then was able to put those girls on a friendship level that his guys friends are on. Without actually having sex, though, AFC's or lower can't have true friendships with women unless they find her completely undesireable. A PUA (or someone close to that level) has more control because he has sex regularly.
A PUA is not desperate like an AFC so he's less likely to harbor secret desires for female friends. If he desires a female, he'll work to game them until he gets rejected or he scores, so it's hard for him to wind in the friend zone, unlike AFC's. If he's there it's most likely by choice, meaning he doesn't feel sexually attracted to them (most likely b/c they aren't good looking enough for him.) The amount of sex he gets and the physical attractiveness of his parnters influences how hot a female friend (or even female partners in general) have to be before he'll even feel sexual desire for them. A female would have to be really hot for a PUA to let himself fall into the friend zone. I can envision a PUA getting trapped in the AFC trap with a SHB. In that case, he's like the AFC with hidden or obvious desires. A PUA, though, would almost never (I'd even be willing to say NEVER) would have the sexual tension with warpigs, and UG's. He could be real friends with them, and possible even average or even above average girls (again, depending on how much action he's getting and how hot his fucks are). By this, I mean, he can be friends with these girls just like he is with guy friends. With HB9 & 10's, it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the PUA to not feel sex desire for them and to not accept a fuck offer.
